Portland Freedom Fund began several years ago, but it gained real momentum in the wake of the 2020 racial justice protests. Organizers focused on helping low-income, BIPOC defendants post bail. They also want to bring attention to the racial inequities embedded in the cash bail system more broadly. The group came under fire recently after a defendant who they’d helped was charged in the murder of the mother of his children after being released. Terrence Hayes is on the board of the Portland Freedom Fund. He says the group will stay focused on its mission of helping people from BIPOC communities who are accused of crimes to get back to their families. The family of the woman killed is foremost in Hayes’ mind, and he says the group will be working more closely with the attorneys involved in defendants’ cases. Hayes joins us to talk more about the Portland Freedom Fund and about his own activism working for racial equity in the criminal justice system.

Editor’s note: This post was corrected to accurately reflect when Portland Freedom Fund began.

Note: The following transcript was created by a computer and edited by a volunteer.

Dave Miller: This is Think Out Loud on OPB. I’m Dave Miller. The Portland Freedom Fund was started in the wake of the racial justice protests in the summer of 2020. Organizers focused on helping low income BIPOC defendants post bail. The group has come under fire recently, a defendant they bailed out allegedly killed the mother of his children one week after being released. Terrence Hayes is on the board of the Portland Freedom Fund. He joins us now to talk about their overall mission and their work going forward. Terrence Hayes, welcome back.

Terrence Hayes: Thank you, good to be back.

Dave Miller: It’s good to have you on. Can you give us a sense for why the Portland Freedom Fund came together in 2020?

Hayes: So the Portland Freedom Fund came together a little bit before that and what ended up happening, it was this sister named Gina who was part of an effort for the National Black Mama’s Bail Out and what that just looked like is she understood that the bail system did not work really well for families in the BIPOC community. And so in wake of that, she wanted to make sure that Portland had a kind of type of that and the Portland Freedom Fund arose from that. So it was a little earlier than that foundationally, but for sure I started getting involved a little bit around that time and so we started to grow and during that time as you know, the country kind of woke up about racial justice and criminal justice reform. So we had a lot of consciousness at that time and so Portland Freedom was able to grow and develop and start impacting lives in a positive way.

Dave Miller: I want to get to your participation in just a second, but when you say that that part of the idea behind this was that the bail system didn’t work for BIPOC people, for people of color, what exactly do you mean?

Hayes: That’s Fair. So it doesn’t work and I just didn’t, it doesn’t work for the BIPOC community. So when you look at the bail system, supposedly it was created to take away the bias, right? There will be a cost that exists for everybody and those people who could afford it would then be allowed to bail out. When you look at some of the most impoverished communities in our country, they are primarily BIPOC communities. And so when you set up a system that needs money, in order for people to be home and fight their innocence, then you’re, I mean by proxy, poor communities suffer because poor communities cannot afford those bails. Most people don’t, especially in the BIPOC community, don’t have the economic means to pay $15, $20, $30,000 bails at any given time. And so what ends up happening is the wealthy folks in our country can afford to bail out, they can afford to fight their cases from home, which historically gives you a better chance not only to win, but also to get better deals, right? Because you’re free, you can kind of fight your own situation and you can leverage that when it comes to the negotiation table, whereas poor people are more likely to not be able to bail and then by proxy, sitting in county jail suffering, not good food, disconnected from their family, the DA’s Office and the system can easily leverage that suffering to get people to sign up for bail, I mean sign up for deals. So the bail system fundamentally forces poor folks to be more subjugated to the system’s process, sorry about that, than anybody else.

Dave Miller: That, can you, for people who actually haven’t had personal experience with this, can you just, can you remind us the basics of how bail works? Let’s say somebody is accused of some crime and then a judge says, “Okay I’m going to set bail at $10,000.” What does that mean? How does the system work?

Hayes: Right, so it’s a step before that. So what happens is you’re indicted. Each crime has a bail already connected to it. So for instance a Ballot Measure 11 crime could be $250,000 bail. And that bail, each crime depending on how they set it, you can have one individual with five crimes arising out of one incident, but they can have different bails. So if you have a Ballot Measure 11, it can be a $250,000 bail. So a family or individual will have to come up with $25,000, 10% of that. Then you might have another set, another crime within that, that has a $10,000 bail. So charges have bails pre-set inside of them already. They’re already there. What ends up happening, you can request a bail reduction hearing, where you can ask the judge to either reduce your bail or argue that you’re not a flight risk. So there’s no need for bail. So some crimes have bails as low as $1000 and you gotta come up with 100 and some crimes as high as $250,000, where a family or individual has to come up with $25,000. So and I don’t know about you, but most people on the planet don’t have $25,000 sitting around.

Dave Miller: And then the basics are that if you post that bail and then you go against the rules of that release, then you forfeit, am I right, not just that money, but potentially you could be on the hook for the entire, for the rest of the 90% of the bail amount?

Hayes: Yeah, the sheriff’s office definitely can hold you to the other 90% of the bail amount for sure. So again, again, what does that look like in real time for families, even if a family has 10% of the bail, you’re putting someone’s aunt, someone’s father, someone’s grandfather, you’re putting them on the hook for another $225 or whatever is left from that. And most folks don’t want to even be at risk for that type of money and most folks can’t be at risk economically for that. So what ends up happening is most poor folks again, then just end up sitting in jail. Now if they do get the bail, they have provisions associated with that bail. Any violation of that, they’re gonna be indicted. A warrant will go out for them. That 10% is gone and then they can be, the person who bailed them out, can be liable. Now you do have self bail where a family member can put that bail on your books and then you can bail yourself out and then you can be liable to that bail.

Dave Miller: So let’s turn to the way your work with the Portland Freedom Fund works. I’m curious because my assumption is that a lot of people could use help making bail. Many of them are people of color, but you can’t help everyone. So how do people come to your attention first of all?

Hayes: Right, so two ways, through word of mouth, right? It’s crazy because everybody still doesn’t know about us or through a lawyer’s recommendation, right? So a lot of defense attorneys are well aware of us and if they know they’ll reach out and say, hey, we have a client that we think would be a good candidate to be bailed out and we’ll look into it. But for us, for me particularly, most of my stuff comes more about, more from word of mouth, out of the community, than it does from lawyer recommendations.

Dave Miller: And then what do you look at, personally?

Hayes: Me? So what I look at, because the part of the Build  Freedom Fund that I work in particularly with this is gangs and gun violence, right? High, what we would consider high risk. So what I try to do is, I look for history, like do they have a history of crimes, right? Was it something that could be considered self defense? And then how does and and to just be really candid, how does the community view this individual, right? If I have people in the community that work in this space, where we consider elders in our community, I have conversations with them, we talk to other members of the community because again, we don’t want to do anything to cause more harm to our community and while trying to do good for the community. So because of the space that I’m particularly in, I’m able to reach out into the streets, reach out into communities, talk to mothers and fathers of the individual and even some talk to people who was listed as victims and have honest dialogue about whether or not they feel at risk or whether or not that person is a risk to them. And again, that’s community based, that’s me being able to reach into my community and have that dialogue.

Dave Miller: What might you hear, and let me actually put it more concretely, what have you heard that has made you think, I’m not going to recommend that we spend this funds money to bail this person out?

Hayes: Right? So, that’s fair. So things I’ve heard in the communities point blank, ‘that dude has a murderous mentality’. I’ve heard from people’s own moms to say he’s not ready to change. Let’s not use something that can be good for the community to let them out right now.

Dave Miller: From somebody’s own mother, you heard that?

Hayes: Oh, for sure. Moms, because you have to understand if they’re a danger to the community, they’re a danger to themselves. Others in my community would rather visit you in jail than bury you, right? One day you can come home. Now, do they prefer, they don’t want their kids in jail. But if you ask any mom on the planet, would you prefer your son in jail or dead? Certainly they’re gonna say in jail and the black community works the same way, right? When parents know that their children are a risk to themselves and a risk to others, they are not in a rush to be a part of allowing them back into the community.

Dave Miller: I should remind folks first of all, if you’re just tuning in, I’m talking right now with Terrence Hayes. He is on the board of the Portland Freedom Fund which posts bail for low income black, Latino and indigenous people facing criminal charges. As in your position, with access to this money, you have an incredible amount of power and a gigantic responsibility. How does it weigh on you?

Hayes: So I’m not gonna let you give me power, OK? I take responsibility.

Dave Miller: Well, no, but I mean you have the power by leveraging this money that people have put into the fund to have it,so somebody is not waiting in jail while their case goes forward. I mean, I take your point, you’re not a DA, but this is real financial power?

Hayes: Right. So for me, it’s heavy. I mean because you have to understand, I love my community and the work I’m doing and I’ve dedicated myself to, is community based. So as much as I look and I say, okay, that individual is a good individual. When I run into folks that will not, I don’t believe by talking with the community, that that might be a good individual, not that won’t be a good individual for bail, I still have to weigh, right, I still have to weigh the fact that I have a voice in determining whether or not that person sits in jail. I never wanted to be judge, jury and executioner, right? We wanted to be part of combating the problem, not bearing the burden of it, but the harms that people do in the potentiality of harms is real, right? So we wanna be, we have to be okay in this work. Well, I have to be okay with this work, with looking people in the eye or their families in the eye, that I know from the community, that I have relationships from the community and saying, man, you are at risk and I don’t believe you’re ready to do something different, right? Or I don’t believe you’re equipped enough not to get yourself in these situations. And that’s tough because I certainly, I don’t want to judge. I come from the same streets, from those same communities and I made those bad decisions, but I don’t ever want to be in a situation where my decision has caused more harm in a community. That is a tough place to be. So you gotta weigh that and that’s not always easy. For me, it’s not always easy for my family. We’ve actually denied people who we know intimately, but because we know intimately, we know that they’re not at a point where they’re ready to do better or not cause harm.

Dave Miller: This takes us to the case that has gotten a lot of attention in the last couple of weeks, the case of Mohamed Adan. According to the Oregonian, he’d been arrested on August 10th on a warrant alleging he had cut off a GPS monitor and entered Rachel Abraham’s townhouse on July 26th. At that point he’d already been facing allegations of strangulation and attempted assault against her from earlier this year, plus a no contact order and a family abuse protective restraining order. As a result of all that, the judge denied that he go free and set bail at $20,000. Why was he considered a good candidate for bail support?

Hayes: So I want to just, so when you say, when people say a judge denied him to be set free, that’s not necessarily the truth, because the judge has the power and ability to take a bail off the table, too. So really saying that a person can be set free, of saying that I’m going to deny bail. When the judge set a bail, what they’re saying is that we want financial collateral connected to your release, not that you can’t be released. So just for the sake of conversation, I think it’s fair to clarify, because it gives the system a pass, and it makes it look like we made some all knowing decision, apart from the system. And that’s the way that some of the things that the DA’s Office has painted this picture, as if we were consciously bucking them, right? As if as a black man I have an obligation to a DA, a district attorney’s office right? Like I better make every decision based on what the DA’s Office feels is good. And I have a really good relationship with the district attorney’s office. I love them. I think they’re doing some good work, but it doesn’t change that. I’m not subjugating my community to any office that has historically not done well with us.

Dave Miller: But just to be clear, I mean we don’t know this for sure. It’s possible that he somehow could have come up with the money, but it’s very possible that he wouldn’t have and that without the support from your fund he would never have been released.

Hayes: Right, exactly. So that’s fair and I think we’re okay with recognizing that in doing the work that we do everyday that something horrific like this happened. So I’m not gonna ask her why I feel like somebody is a, somebody was a good decision. What I will say is I think when that individual was being evaluated, that the bail was reasonably priced, that’s something that we could afford, that there were people in the community and there was a lawyer recommendation, that we received from his attorney to help post bail for him. You know hindsight is a terrible thing to be judged on, right? Like, to be fair when you’re doing a good thing, there’s always the risk or possibility that someone won’t do well by that good thing, right? So if I sit here and say, ‘oh he was a good candidate’, that spits in the face of what this family is going through. That spits in the face of the harm that was brought to the community, that spits in the face of this tragedy. And I’m just not gonna do that, but what I will say that we bailed hundreds of people out, to this point. We’ve affected hundreds of lives in a very positive way. And so far we have not had this type of incident and now we realize that these type of incidents, well not more than possible, we know, sorry about that, we know that these incidents are more than possible, but we realized that now we, to a certain degree, are part of that, but I’m not gonna let somebody, like I was not able to blame anybody when I did the things that I did, I didn’t blame the system. I recognized that I made a decision and for the media and for the DA’s Office and for everybody to attempt to focus this, make Portland Freedom Fund the problem, in a problematic system is just, it’s ludicrous, it’s a bit of nonsense. So we helped an individual, an individual like many other individuals that we helped and what we realized now, because we also learn from our lessons, what we realize is that we have to ask for more from attorneys that recommend individuals and we have to be able to just take a little bit more time and evaluate individuals. It’s a horrific lesson learned for us, but we are trying to grow and develop, but I don’t ever want to take anything away from this grieving family and what they’re going through. And I feel like any attempt to demonize Portland Freedom Fund in the BIPOC community, takes away from the fact that they did give him a bail. The judge could have not done it, the DA has access to the laws, to restrict folks from having, giving bail. We’re not in control of that. We’re not sitting in courtrooms with the ability to dictate who has a bail. The judge makes a decision, if a person is bailable, we just do our best to help individuals out of our communities.

Dave Miller: Just because we’re running short on time, but can you give us a sense for you, you talk a little bit about it, but I’m just curious more concretely, how your vetting process is going to change going forward.

Hayes: Right? So one of the things we’re going to do is when we get recommendations from attorneys, the client has to be willing to sign a release of information, right? Again, we’re not public defenders, we’re not the DA’s Office. We can’t just get the whole case. If a client is willing to give up, to sign a release of information, and the public defender is willing to give us access to all those things, then we can, I think we can make a better decision and then I think we’ll do, we will definitely do a little better to make sure we try to contact victims or potential victims in this space. And I think, just to be fair, and I know somebody will try to hate me for this, we won’t be looking at domestic violence crimes, that’s something we bail. And not because we don’t feel like people are not bailable, those domestic violence crimes, but we realize the extremity of possibility of harm that can come as a byproduct of that. So those are all things we’re trying to do better. Again, we don’t have access to the same thing that the District Attorney’s Office and Public Defender’s Office have, we’re a community based organization that’s trying to give something to the community that historically we have not had.

Dave Miller: Hayes, thanks very much for joining us today.

Hayes: Absolutely. No problem. Thank you for having me.

Dave Miller: That’s Terrence Hayes, a board member for the Portland Freedom Fund. Coming up after a break, we’ll hear why the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife has started to limit bowhunting for elk in parts of the state and what it could mean for hunters.